This is a human brain performance, I'd like to share.

Input: Fast(1 gigabit per second. Human retina has a resolution of 127 million pixels

Processing: Fast for pattern recognition (10 billion instructions per second)

Slow for calculation (2-100 bps)

Output: Slow(speech:100bps)

Storage Very large(10 terabytes)but retrieval can uncertain.

Hello sbahri

Yes our brain so complex a chaos of molecules, signals, changes and it can perform functions.

I like your numbers very much. Do you know you show exactly when my neural nets are good and where only mathematical NN are excellent to use?

I will give also a concrete example.

Alzheimer's disease is a social problem and a disaster for the patient and the family.

What we try is this. We take signals from the brain of the patient and a healthy family member. When I am not clear please ask me.

From the patient we learn the personal signals of a cluster of neurons, always there's still some activity in the brain. This we do with mathematical NN's for they have to distinguish between the patients own signals (pos) and generally learned ones (pls). Pos we see at many places, pls is more specific. You could now compare this with the immune system. The math NN analyzes the signals.

From the control person we take also the own signals (cos) and the healthy learned ones (cls = control learned signals). In general we have to do a range of tests. In my promotion article you can see how I distinguish between signals and noise (section 2). A result is the brain needs margins in the cells and everywhere.

Then in the brain stem cells are injected and then my net teaches the combination pos+cls. Those are recognizable in the cluster of neurons, due to pos, but with sound teaching activities cls.

You learn here that results are more important then the way you can choose. I hope you see that this helps me for all those new ideas. I am no more intelligent than you. In my place you could have done the same or something else. There so much possibly to do with this factual thinking, (FT), trust just your brains and all comes well. Please post more and if you wish you can of course react to my postings. Please stay always friendly as well.

All the analyzing work is done just by mathematical nets. So please mathematicians go on with your own projects, you are needed for certain.

Shabri says retrieval can be uncertain. Yes! If you see our brain with all those neurons how is it possible that something can be retrieved. It's like a wonder. See please also my promotion article, so you understand more. And a book about emergence (physical) that's certainly an eyeopener for everybody, who likes to learn.

And sbahri's table tells us why. Thanks sbahri,

Ed van der Meulen

HOW TO MAKE THOUSANDS DOING NOTHING AT ALL

Keep in mind that everything stated below is 100% legal as stated by
the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161).
A little while back, I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you
are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you
could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial
investment of $6.00! : So I thought,' Yeah, right, this must be a
scam', but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anway it
said that you have to send $1.00 to each of the following names on the
list, stated at the end of this article using Paypal (our new form of
transferring money safely and securely). You dont have to be preferred
or verified to transfer and recieve money, so you lose no money
through transfers. Now honestly, what is six dollars, especially out
of a Paypal account. In exchange you will make thousands in the first
few months. You then place your own name and email address (registered
for Paypal transfers) in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the
article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands of
newsgroups) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and
talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I sent out
my measly 6.00 to the six people on the list. Well GUESS WHAT!!...

Within 7 days, I started: getting $$$$$ in my account! I was shocked!
I figured it would end soon, but the CASH just kept coming in. In my
first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had
made a total of over $1,000.00! In the third week I had over
$15,060.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth week and I
have made a total of just over $26,000.00 and it's still coming in
rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00 and 6 minutes to send it out. This
program WORKS, all you have to do is try it, and waste some pocket
change. You could find six dollars laying around the house. There is
absolutely nothing you could lose. Just follow the 4 basic steps below
to make thousands in just a few days, weeks, or months, it all depends
on how many posts of this letter you put in message boards.

Heres how it works:

When you post 200 messages all over the internet, it is estimated that
at least 15 people will respond and send you a $1.00. ($15.00) Those
15 will Post 200 Posts each and 225 people send you $1.00 ($225.00)
Those 225 people Post 200 Posts each and 3,375 people send you $1.00
($3,375.00) Those 3,375 post 200 posts each and 759,375 people send
you $1.00 ($759,375.00) At this point your name drops off the list,
but so far you have received $813,615.00. Note: I'm not saying this is
going to make everyone 800 grand, but lets say even 1 person out of
200 tries this program, you are still going to make 50,000 dollars in

anywhere from 1 month to 6 months max!!!!!
SO SAVE THIS MESSAGE NOW IF YOUR INTERESTED IN CHANGING YOUR LIFE!!!
And go to the instructions below to get started immediately. You must
send out 6 dollars to the people at the end of the letter before
swapping your name in, or else those 6 people will not add you to
there list, therefore you will not make any money.

INSTRUCTIONS

1. Immediately send $1.00 to each of the six people on the list using
Paypal, and in the comment section type "Please add me to your list".
Here are the emails that you transfer the money into:

2. Now Copy this letter. All you have to do is save this whole article
along with instructions, etc in a word file/note pad on your computer.

3. After sending the money to the first 6 people on the list, you can
remove the name next to the #1 on the list and move the rest of the

names up one position (#2 becomes #1, #3 becomes #2, etc?) Then place
your name in the #6 position. Then save it.

4. When you have completed the instructions, take this letter and then
go to (Google, Yahoo,...) and type in (Making Money Message board,
Money Message Board, Money Forum, Free money Forum, or anything along
those lines that are forums) and start posting your copy of this
message at lease 200 times, to as many unique message boards as you
can, or more. The more times you post this at a unique board, the more
money you will make. The more copies you send the better the results.
Keep a copy of this letter so you can use it a second time. Post it
out again in six months, but Post it with the addresses you receive
with each dollar. It will work better the second time. NOTE: This
service is 100% legal - (Refer to title 18 section 1302 of the U.S.
Postal & lottery laws)

P.S. There is no possible way to cheat this program. If you do not
follow the instructions exactly, you will not make any money,
GUARANTEED.

Paypal accounts to send 1 dollar to :
#1) dolphinlov...@lycos.com
#2) z...@yahoo.com
#3) linds...@5starmail.com
#4) pietr_sovsa_1...@hotmail.com
#5) chrislhs@hotmail.com
#6) diamondsluv3@hotmail.com

REMEMBER AGAIN- After you've mailed 1 dollar to each of these people,
then you can add your paypal name to the 6th position, and move the
rest up one spot.

I always see numbers like these ones in articles and discussions related to neural networks. I doubt that it is possible to make direct analogies between the speed and storage of the brain and that of a computer. For example take the statement that the brain has 10TB of storge. What exactly does that mean. The brain does not store information such as images and sounds the same way as a computer and thus I beleive that, while these numbers can give hints as to the potential of the brain, they are ultimatly meaningless.

Just my 2 cents.

Chad

>For example take the statement that the brain has 10TB of storge. >What exactly does that mean.

One thing that it would seem to me to indicate is that any conventional computer able to duplicate its behaviour would need 10 terabytes of storage, in addition to storage needed to set the system up in the first place.

Here's another interesting fact,

We design COTS (commercial off the shelf) products for the US military. One particular project involves a data recorder that receives contiguous uncompressed data at 4Gbps (4 billion bits per second) and stores it on a 8 terabyte memory depth server. The data then is analyzed at approximately 2.8GHz in real-time (2,800,000,000 calculations per cycle/second). This is accomplished on a quad processor main board without using the PCI bus. Theoretically we could move and analyze data faster however the current system is not designed to run optimally above the required specifications. The total cost of this system?

$8,000.00

According to Moore’s law (please correct me if my calculations are off),
(bits per square inch) = 2^(t - 1962)

Personal computers will (all at once) be able to input/send, calculate and store data equally, if not surpass, the human brain by the year 2010. You can build a sever today with over 100Tbytes of memory storage and the fastest processor to date is at 4GHz (not over-clocked, and not released yet).

Now here’s the interesting part, software engineers/designers utilize what many know as COM (Component Object Modeling) when they program. This is similar to how the Internet functions. Software Objects that produce a function or react to a scenario are stored in massive databases. From there a programmer can write/program an application that can call upon these “functions” to do certain tasks (i.e. store, analyze, respond) anywhere around the world. Imagine the database we’ll have in the next decade, imagine the speed at which data will be delivered and now imagine BioElectronic scientists and engineers that utilize NANO technology. Let’s put it this way, they’ve already successfully injected nanobots into the blood stream of laboratory test animals.

I'm not sure i agree with crempp, how we store information is through the different "weights" attached to the neurons in our brain. Other than that every nerve cell is the same !(please correct me if i'm wrong;)

Looking at this, it is awful similar to the binary code that computers use...

Animal brains do NOT function like serial computers. Bits are not discretely stored in neurons. Serial computers operate in a very synchronized, lock-step fashion, typically performing a very small number of operations at any given instant. Animal brains have "waves" of activity, with many neurons firing at once. Incidentally, "firing" by neurons is not an on/off affair- signal "spikes" are transmitted to neighboring neurons. Analyzing serial computers is best done via binary logic. Analyzing brains is probably best done via signal processing.

-Will Dwinnell
http://will.dwinnell.com

This may be true, but from what i've been reading, neurons are binary. They either fire or don't.

If the activation energy is higher than the thresh-hold it will fire, and if it's not it won't. As you said about neurons working in waves, i'd never thought about that before. It's a pretty cool idea, and a nice insight!!

One final question though, what do you mena by signal processing, in relation to studying brains?

"This may be true, but from what i've been reading, neurons are binary. They either fire or don't."

When neurons "fire", they emit a series of eletrical pulses. How, exactly, these pulses interact with others, in aggregate, to produce cognition is not known.

"If the activation energy is higher than the thresh-hold it will fire, and if it's not it won't."

Brains do not have registers. Brains do not store and recall information discretely or with certiainty. Brains do not perform floating-point arithmetic. Brains do not follow programs. Brains do not operate like serial computers.

"One final question though, what do you mena by signal processing, in relation to studying brains?"

Yes, signal processing or differential equations. If you're interested in understanding what is already known about how actual animal brains work, forget about backpropagation and most artificial neural networks, and look into neurodynamics, especially as studied by computer types. Freeman is a good example. See some of his work here:

http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/FreemanWWW/manuscripts/IIIF4/82.html
http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/wjf/AA.Review.of.olfaction.pdf
http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/lab/group/rk/ijcnn00-1.pdf

Or others:

http://www.msci.memphis.edu/~harterd/pubs/conf/2004/sab2004-harter-kozma.pdf
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0387949380/qid=1129222278/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-3746505-3920004?v=glance&s=books

-Will Dwinnell
http://will.dwinnell.com

MY RESPONSE TO THE RESPONSE TO THE RESPONSE
OF A VERY OLD THREAD

I totally agree, however although
everything was true, you didn't seem
to address the issue. Yes, a brain is not
a serial computer. Yes, brains don't
have registers. However, they still
mantain a binary operation. I will explain
for the clarity of readers, and for my own
peace of mind, since I feel you've shot down
my idea without fully comprehending it:

LONG WINDED EXPLANATION
The activation energy in a neuron
is not a number, but the level at which
an electro-chemical charge must be at to
elicit a response. In biology this is
called the action potential. Now I will
explain some bio for those who might
not understand :). An electrical charge
is created by a chemical gradient over the
cell membrane of a neuron. The gradient
is produced, by the active transport
of a pump known as the NA+/K+ ATPase, or
sodium/potassium ATPase. This pump pushes
Na+ out of the cell and pulls K+ into the cell.
The work of this pump creates the large gradient
across the neurons cell membrane. This is the
neuron's resting state.

Input from other cells cause gates
in the cell membrane to open letting out
K+, and letting Na+ into the cell. This lowers
the gradient, and is known as depolarization.
When the neuron has been depolarized down
to its threshold it fires.

SHORT AND CONCISE
In summary when the gradient within a cell
decreases below a certain value, known as the
threshold it fires. This is essentially a
binary operation because it gives only two
ouputs:
1 or 0
venar303
posts.
Wednesday 31 December, 19:00
Reply - Edit

...and brains are made out of atoms, just like serial computers... so?

My point is: the first message in this thread repeated the refrain about 1 brain = nnnnMHz computer, etc., which is preposterous. Let's just grant that everything you've written is factually correct. So what? Are you suggesting that binary operations performed by neurons assemble themselves in a way analogous to electronic NANDs?

Biological brains and electronic computers function in fundamentally different ways. I don't see the point in hand-waving about vague similarities.

-Will Dwinnell
http://will.dwinnell.com

The numbers may or may not be correct. However it's pattern recognition that is the key here. To do pattern recognition on a computer you need to run data thru a algorithm that may consist of a variable number of CPU instructions. We can optimize a algorithm so that it performes better on specific hardware.

We cannot compare CPU instructions with brain instructions since they're of different nature. However, what we can do is compare the quallity and performance of the pattern recognition alogorithm running on the CPU with that in the brain.

Now we have to consider data. So we need data from sight, touch and so forth to be analyzed by the pattern recognition. This is a further discussion.

"Input: Fast(1 gigabit per second. Human retina has a resolution of 127 million pixels

Processing: Fast for pattern recognition (10 billion instructions per second)

Slow for calculation (2-100 bps)

Output: Slow(speech:100bps)

Storage Very large(10 terabytes)but retrieval can uncertain."

Where do these numbers come from? "10 billion instructions per second"? What "instructions"? Animal brains are not serial computers. How does one measure calculation in "bits per second"?

dubiously,
Predictor
http://will.dwinnell.com

The brain has no instructions -- it has thoughts... like one of the people here said, you can't have an analogy between the brain and a computer; our processing is very abstract and improving/degrading thru time, while computer's processing is certain and fixed...
if we are talking about transfer rates, I could pretty much say that our brain overkills the hardware in any computer, don't forget it uses more than just electrical signals, it is also using hormones and materials that makes the thinking...

For example, when a person is in stress, you obviously need to think faster, the brain releases chemical materials that help them accomplish that.

Now, this may all be a LITTLE influenced by the Matrix, but isn't it a little stupid to be dabbling in things greater than us. That guy a messages before me said 2010 is when Artificial Intelligence surpasses us. Isn't that basically a doomsday date? Haha, but seriously, once they surpass us, they will probably be able to be self-sufficient in advancing themselves. Will they scheme against us? Will they ally with us? What's going to happen do you think? Now, I'm not a stupid person so don't talk to me like I'm retarded, I have an IQ of roughly 139, so I'm not stupid. Will these computers take control of the stock market and put us into slavery through a financial stranglehold? I just think that it would be stupid to create things smarter than us. Now, I'm not some religious fanatic, making replacement organs and limbs is AWESOME, and enhancing the brain through nanotechnology is something I'm looking forward to. I may even dabble in AI myself some day for whatever reason, because I'm looking to go into Bio-Chemistry when I hit college. Please have an open mind and help me out here.

There's nothing wrong with artificial intelligence, and making something that is smarter than you is not stupid, it's brilliant... what that may cause is a different story.

At any rate, AI could live inside a computer program and not even know about humans, pluging a smart AI into a robot is as risky as pluging a finite state/dumb AI.
Don't take movies like IRobot and Stealth as granted, because in reality, if humans were capable of recreating humanity, then we reached our next level of existence.

IVIegadude, do you have children? What if one of your children turns out to have an IQ of 140? They are smarter then you.

Now ask yourself all those same questions you asked about AI, but apply it to your child.

Good Morning Sir,
I am pleased if you tell me something more about your other findings about human brain.Send me the EMails if possible.

Thanks.
Jagdev Singh Dosanjh.

Most of the above regarding the brain are not established facts- they are wild conjecture based on a flawed analogy to electronic computers.

-Will Dwinnell
http://will.dwinnell.com

HOW TO MAKE THOUSANDS DOING NOTHING AT ALL

Keep in mind that everything stated below is 100% legal as stated by
the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161).
A little while back, I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you
are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you
could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial
investment of $6.00! : So I thought,' Yeah, right, this must be a
scam', but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anway it
said that you have to send $1.00 to each of the following names on the
list, stated at the end of this article using Paypal (our new form of
transferring money safely and securely). You dont have to be preferred
or verified to transfer and recieve money, so you lose no money
through transfers. Now honestly, what is six dollars, especially out
of a Paypal account. In exchange you will make thousands in the first
few months. You then place your own name and email address (registered
for Paypal transfers) in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the
article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands of
newsgroups) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and
talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I sent out
my measly 6.00 to the six people on the list. Well GUESS WHAT!!...

Within 7 days, I started: getting $$$$$ in my account! I was shocked!
I figured it would end soon, but the CASH just kept coming in. In my
first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had
made a total of over $1,000.00! In the third week I had over
$15,060.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth week and I
have made a total of just over $26,000.00 and it's still coming in
rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00 and 6 minutes to send it out. This
program WORKS, all you have to do is try it, and waste some pocket
change. You could find six dollars laying around the house. There is
absolutely nothing you could lose. Just follow the 4 basic steps below
to make thousands in just a few days, weeks, or months, it all depends
on how many posts of this letter you put in message boards.

Heres how it works:

When you post 200 messages all over the internet, it is estimated that
at least 15 people will respond and send you a $1.00. ($15.00) Those
15 will Post 200 Posts each and 225 people send you $1.00 ($225.00)
Those 225 people Post 200 Posts each and 3,375 people send you $1.00
($3,375.00) Those 3,375 post 200 posts each and 759,375 people send
you $1.00 ($759,375.00) At this point your name drops off the list,
but so far you have received $813,615.00. Note: I'm not saying this is
going to make everyone 800 grand, but lets say even 1 person out of
200 tries this program, you are still going to make 50,000 dollars in

anywhere from 1 month to 6 months max!!!!!
SO SAVE THIS MESSAGE NOW IF YOUR INTERESTED IN CHANGING YOUR LIFE!!!
And go to the instructions below to get started immediately. You must
send out 6 dollars to the people at the end of the letter before
swapping your name in, or else those 6 people will not add you to
there list, therefore you will not make any money.

INSTRUCTIONS

1. Immediately send $1.00 to each of the six people on the list using
Paypal, and in the comment section type "Please add me to your list".
Here are the emails that you transfer the money into:

2. Now Copy this letter. All you have to do is save this whole article
along with instructions, etc in a word file/note pad on your computer.

3. After sending the money to the first 6 people on the list, you can
remove the name next to the #1 on the list and move the rest of the

names up one position (#2 becomes #1, #3 becomes #2, etc?) Then place
your name in the #6 position. Then save it.

4. When you have completed the instructions, take this letter and then
go to (Google, Yahoo,...) and type in (Making Money Message board,
Money Message Board, Money Forum, Free money Forum, or anything along
those lines that are forums) and start posting your copy of this
message at lease 200 times, to as many unique message boards as you
can, or more. The more times you post this at a unique board, the more
money you will make. The more copies you send the better the results.
Keep a copy of this letter so you can use it a second time. Post it
out again in six months, but Post it with the addresses you receive
with each dollar. It will work better the second time. NOTE: This
service is 100% legal - (Refer to title 18 section 1302 of the U.S.
Postal & lottery laws)

P.S. There is no possible way to cheat this program. If you do not
follow the instructions exactly, you will not make any money,
GUARANTEED.

Paypal accounts to send 1 dollar to :
#1) dolphinlov...@lycos.com
#2) z...@yahoo.com
#3) linds...@5starmail.com
#4) pietr_sovsa_1...@hotmail.com
#5) chrislhs@hotmail.com
#6) diamondsluv3@hotmail.com

REMEMBER AGAIN- After you've mailed 1 dollar to each of these people,
then you can add your paypal name to the 6th position, and move the
rest up one spot.